Rev Gav

My Interview with Dr. Katie Cross

I was interviewed by Dr. Katie Cross from Aberdeen university who is researching why people ‘leave’ church.

1.⁠ ⁠Tell me a bit about Fab Church: how did it come about? In your own words, what are its aims, and who is it for?

I have worked in digital community spaces since the mid 1990s, and in the early 2000 ran a large music-based community forum with over 60,000 registered members. My first degree was in software engineering, and with skills in multimedia — graphics, design, audio, I have long integrated these skills into my church work.

FAB Church came about for two reasons. The first was to provide a repository of content that I have produced — sermons, music, books, photos, MEMEs and more. The second was to provide a space where people I have ‘collected’ along the way can connect. These people are those I have met through different churches and travelling, who for one reason or another have struggled to connect with a local, geographical church.

FAB Church is therefore open to those who feel they long for a supportive Christian community, and have a desire for Christian Spirituality, in addition to, to compliment, or to replace offline geographical Christian community (church).

You can read our story here: https://fab.church/who-we-are/

You can read our values here: https://fab.church/values/

2.⁠ ⁠Can you tell me a bit about you, are you currently with a church or is Fab Church your full time job?

I am an ordained minister in the Church of England, currently serving as a parish priest in the Anglican Church of Bermuda, alongside leading FAB Church. I will be leaving parish ministry in July 2025, whereupon, along with Helen, FAB Church will become our primary ministry — although we will engage with locum, and occasional parish work alongside this.

We have been developing the FAB Church website over the past two and half years. The idea is not simply to do ‘online worship’ — we’ve done plenty of that, and anyone can do that — but provide a community platform that meets the needs of the community. Much of FAB Church is hidden to visitors, then there is more open to Guests, but only Members get the full platform. The reason for this is mostly around privacy.

For example:

• Online Gatherings
• Prayers of Thanksgiving
• Prayers of Supplication/Intercession
• FabChats (like a private forum)
• The ability to submit Creative worship content.
• Private Messages
• Private Blogs

3.⁠ ⁠On your website I was drawn to this phrase: “I’m passionate about people finding the love, acceptance, and compassion of Jesus in their lives — especially those that, for whatever reason, struggle connect with ‘regular’ church.” Can you tell me a bit about your experience with folk struggling to attend church?

People can struggle to ‘attend’ or be integrated into some geographical churches and this can be for a wide range of reasons. There is not one-size-fits-all reason that people do not ‘stick’ with church.

Here are some of the reasons I have encountered:

1.⁠ ⁠Acceptance of Gender and/or sexuality.

Where we currently serve, in Bermuda, the church is very conservative, and there are perhaps only two churches out of 150 that are openly inclusive and affirming. Many people who might personally identify as LGBTQIA2SP+ or part of the Rainbow Community feel they cannot come out publicly because of their gender and sexuality and fear the reaction of friends — especially those that are Christian and openly antagonistic. This is a place where there are churches with members that stand with placards and go on the radio to denounce events such as Pride as evil and Satanic. FAB Church provides a safe place where they know the content is inclusive and affirming (e.g. uses inclusive language), and where they can engage with other Christians in a safe environment. This is also true for members of FAB in the USA and the UK, where some attend local parish churches that are not inclusive or affirming.

2.⁠ ⁠Physical Accessibility

For some members, they are unable to access geographical church because of distance, mobility, or ability. FAB Church is online and accessible through any device. It has been (and is being) specially developed to be able to be used on mobile devices as well as desktops. We make use of ALT text, and the content can be used by screen-readers.

3.⁠ ⁠A Range of Spiritualities

For some Guests and Members, they have yet to make a commitment to Christ, and the only options for Worship or engagement in geographical churches require a full commitment. It is difficult to sing hymns or ‘Jesus’ songs if you are still exploring your faith! i.e. The local church often expresses itself as a fully-devoted and committed church community, but not so much a safe place to enquire. FAB Church, we hope, has blurry edges, with a ‘come-as-you-are’ mentality.

4.⁠ ⁠Fear

It is very difficult to walk into a traditional church building — especially on your own. Churches have their own ‘rules’ of engagement — when to sit, when to stand, what responses to make, whether you can take communion or not, and so on. Some find engaging in online church communities easier, and less fearful, than walking into an existing church community.

5.⁠ ⁠Style

For some, the style of their local church is off-putting. Perhaps it feels old-fashioned and traditional with organs, ancient words, and priests dressed in strange clothes. For others it is too ‘in your face’ with loud rock music and shouty preaching.

Church is not ‘worship’ and not something you ‘attend’. Church is a community gathered together to join in with the mission of God in the world; a place where we can journey together, offer each other mutual support and encouragement, and be able to express and grow who we truly are — our physicality, emotions, intellect, and spirituality — in a safe and loving environment.

4.⁠ ⁠I wonder if you have a sense of how church leavers will engage with Fab Church. Do you think they will, and if so, why?

We sometimes put people into different camps – unchurched, de-churched, still-churched. I tend not to think of people as ‘church leavers’. Community has changed and the way in which people engage with community has changed. Even for those would primarily identify with an on-the-ground parish church, people straddle multiple church communities — online worshipping communities, more than one denomination, ecumenical Bible Studies, and so on.

If you are a Christian you never leave the Church (capital C) but you may leave your local church because of some of the reasons listed above. For some, but very few I would suggest, online church may be their primary church but not their only expression of church as many people still need face-to-face connections and physical touch as part of their spirituality. We are happy for FAB Church members to be part of other expressions of church.

5.⁠ ⁠I’m interested in why people who leave “regular church” as you call it remain Christian. Any thoughts on this from your perspective?

They are likely first Christians (followers of Christ) and second, members of one or more church communities. A Christian is someone filled with the Holy Spirit of God, and when you become a Christian you do a deal with God, and even if we are unable to hold up our end of the bargain, God never gives up on us. For some de-churched people, there is very much a latent Christian spirituality waiting to be rekindled.

The reality is that, for many in contemporary western culture, we have a pick-and-mix approach to church. Part of me wishes this was not so, but it is the reality we face.

Some say, “You don’t need to go to church to be a Christian,” and, yes, technically, this is true, but we are wired to be in community with each other, and the Holy Spirit in us is always outward-looking and looking to the interests of others. Love cannot exist in isolation. Love has to be expressed, and so for those who are Christians who have ‘left’ church, it is very likely they will seek Christian community elsewhere, or be drawn into it, as a moth to a flame, as God works in and through them, and in and through others.

6.⁠ ⁠What are your ultimate hopes for Fab Church and beyond, for how we do church?

I love FAB Church. Yes, I am a geeky, techie person, and love online spaces, but I love our church community — the people. I hope and pray FAB will grow. It will unlikely be a ‘mega church’ but a place where people can connect with God and with each other. I also hope that the platform may be replicated so there is a FAB Church, a Brill Church, a Super Church, an Ace Church, and so on! Perhaps different online expressions to meet the needs of different people groups.

Helen and I also think there will be some kind of on-the-ground expression of FAB — not a traditional church — but perhaps a FAB retreat where Members (and Guests) can come and be physically fed and watered alongside our online offerings.